The Discussion Continues
Between Shubbiha Lahum and Trinity 2 (B)
By Jalal Abualrub
Jalal Abualrub wrote:
Your statement next and the quote found in it are astounding. You said, “The danger one faces when confronted with extreme or complicated ideas, is, 'to throw the baby out with the bath-water,' this means to reject everything about a matter, even the true and the good. Here is what C.S. Lewis, professor of Medieval and Renaissance literature at Cambridge University has to say about such an attitude: 'If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.' ('Mere Christianity', Macmillan Company, New York, 1943, page 145)”
‘Inventing Religion’? From beginning to end, the OT speaks of the One and Only Lord in simple terms. The OT never said God is three. It never said that God had or will have a son. The OT never said that this supposed son will die on the cross to save mankind from their sins. The current Christian creed was never preached before by any prophet whom Allah sent. The words you use to justify your creed are not from your Holy Book, but are your own words. If the people you quote were truthful, they would not have needed their own words, which are complex and utterly confusing, to justify what they claim the Bible says. They would have just come up with the evidence which does not need to be explained, but instead is self-explanatory.
Moses did not invent a religion, you, Christians, did. He never knew God as you, Christians, know Him. Abraham never said what you say; Jacob never said what you say; not even Satan said what you say. Jesus never spoke of the complex ideas you came up with. The NT does not have complex words like the ones you came up with. So who is inventing what?
It is rather arrogant of the people you refer to, to claim that they could have invented a simpler religion. Instead, they invented a complex religion that they cannot justify from their own Holy Book. The justification they offer is not divine, it is human. And when they try and justify what makes no sense, they drown more and more into deeper trouble by using their own logic to explain what can never be explained. It is arrogant from them that, having discovered that they need a rather complex answer to explain their invented creed, they then say that they could have come up with a simpler creed. Who do they think they are? They are just human beings who struggle to a great extent to explain what was never explained in the Bible or found in it to begin with.
Why the deception, the confusion? Why did not God reveal a simpler creed, similar to what all OT prophets professed, instead of this confusion that you call a creed? Why not clear statements like, ‘Trinity is the way and the religion’?
5) The concept of God being a unique community within Himself stands in opposite to the Muslim concept of Allah being one in the strict numerical sense of the word. This Muslim understanding raises three questions:
i) 'How could Allah have been self sufficient and loving before the creation of angels and of the earth?' Since true love is always giving and Allah according to Islam is a lone God, according to logic there must have been a time where he was incomplete, where he could not have had the attribute of love? Furthermore, love between two is reciprocal (‘I love you and therefore you love me back in return’). It is ‘inferior’ to shared love between three, as found in the Trinity, being love’s fullest expression. (See Richard St Victor in his six books on Trinity).
Numerous other eternal attributes of Allah which are expressed in his 99 beautiful names can also be used to point towards a contradiction within Allah’s being. For him to be the eternal ‘El-Hadi’, ‘the Guide’ or, ‘El Ghafer,’ ‘the Forgiver’, there must be a created subject where He can be guiding and forgiving. However, according to both the Quran and the Bible, God has always been and always will be perfect, independent from His creation.
Answer 5:
Where does the Quran say that Allah is dependent on His creation? You are challenged to bring proof to this statement. I have proof that Allah says the opposite, {15. O mankind! It is you who stand in need of Allâh. But Allâh is Rich (Free of all needs), Worthy of all praise} [35:15]. You seem to think that for Allah to be al-Hadi, He NEEDS someone to guide, otherwise, His Attribute al-Hadi does not exist or at least was not being functional or complete until creation came. Where did you get this concept from, surely not from the Quran?
Among Allah’s Names is ‘Al-Awwal’. This word, which means, ‘The First’, is also shared by Christianity about God, since they hopefully agree that He is Eternal and everything else is created. The same logic you use against Allah applies to your religion. God was before creation and this, as you know, is the essence of His being Eternal. Therefore, according to your logic, these attributes of God found in the OT and the NT were not fulfilled from eternity:
First: “I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers” (Exodus 20:5).
Did God develop this jealousy of sin and polytheism after He created creation, or was it present in Him from eternity, and if so, who was there to sin to arouse God’s jealousy? And why does your Book claim that God punishes the innocent for the sins of the guilty? In contrast, Islam says that Allah does not punish the children for the mistakes of their fathers, {Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then, he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another’s burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)} (17:15).
Second: “He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them his way" (Psalms 25:9).
Thus, according to the OT, God is al-Hadi, i.e., He Who guides. If God were al-Hadi from eternity, whom was He guiding? Or, did He develop this Attribute after creation?
Third: "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own" (John 7:17).
You claim Jesus is God, eternal. Did he fulfill his NEED to teach and guide creation and speak to them from eternity, or were these attributes of his unfulfilled and untested?
Fourth: “And the Lord … proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth” (Exodus 34:6).
Thus, according to the OT, God is Merciful, Patient, Gracious and the Possessor of all goodness and truth, i.e., the equivalent of Allah’s Names, ‘Ar-Ra`heem; as-Sabur; ash-Shakur; al-Haqq’. How were these Attributes tested, if they existed from eternity, before there were any to grant mercy to, to be patient with their errors, to thank for doing good, to grant them abundance in righteousness?
According to your logic, these Attributes were not fulfilled. Thus, your logic applies to your Book, unless you claim that creation is also eternal, i.e., from the beginning there were creations whom God was jealous of their errors, whom He guided and loved. Whatever answers you may come up with to these questions may also apply to the Quran.
As for your argument that God was ‘loved’ within the Trinity, so this Attribute of His was fulfilled, it is rejected by your own Bible, which claims Two Gods not three, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). Did God also love mankind, or ‘us’, from eternity (‘To think that God gave up a perfect relationship for a time shows how great his love towards us is!’)? If yes, then creation is eternal. If no, then God’s love for creation developed as much in the same way as Trinity was developed centuries after Jesus departed this earth. Also, if being three-in-one makes better love between the Christian triune than being just one, then why not four and five hundred gods? Why only three? The more gods, the better love shared between them! Then the mystery will be far more substantial. I seek refuge with Allah from all this which belittles Him and degrades His Perfect Essence.
On Allah’s 99 Names:
I stated before that Allah has more than 99 Names, not only 99. He has the most perfect Names and Attributes. He is Eternal, so are His Names and Attributes. Allah does not need anything; He does not need to fulfill His Attribute ‘the Creator’ so that He is complete. What a dreadful thing to say. Rather, Allah always possessed these Names and Attributes. He created creation to worship Him, for their own good not that He needs them in any way, {56. And I (Allâh) created not the Jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone). 57. I seek not any provision from them (i.e. provision for themselves or for My creatures) nor do I ask that they should feed Me (i.e. feed themselves or My creatures). 58. Verily, Allâh is the All‑Provider, Owner of Power, the Most Strong} (51:56-58).
Your concept judges Allah according to your limited existence and attributes. We need to love and be loved. Allah does not need to love to be loved; He possessed the quality of loving all that is good and righteous since before creation and forever. His quality suits His Majesty. He is the Merciful before there was any to grant mercy to. When He created creation, He favored them with different types of His Mercy; He did not develop this attribute of His. Rather, He developed them and treated them with His Merciful Nature, which is Eternal. His being al-Hadi is His Attribute; Allah does not need creation to guide to possess that quality. This is how independent Allah is. Look how the Quran and Sunnah describe how limitless Allah’s Power and Glory is, and how limited your view of the Creator is. Allah is the CREATOR, not the CREATED. He needs NOT anyone, while creation stands in need of him, {Allâh stands not in need of any of the ‘Âlamîn (mankind, jinn and all that exists)} (3:97).
Cut it out! You know that this logic of yours applies to your own religion, unless you claim that creation is eternal too. And if you think to respond by saying that love was shared between the three gods of Christianity, and so this attribute was fulfilled and complete. Then what about God’s attribute, the Creator, how was it fulfilled and complete, unless it was unfulfilled and incomplete before creating creation? Aloneness; boredom; dependence; need; un-fulfilment: these are all but some of Allah’s creation. They do not bind Him. You do not bind Allah by your human logic.
6) ii) 'Is Allah selfish?' Since love is described as having '...no envy;...no high opinion of itself,....no pride;...no thought for itself...(1 Cor 13: 4-5) some people like sceptic John Stuart Mill, Mark Twain or Pablo Picasso have come to the conclusion that God is utterly selfish. They say that by asking us to worship nobody else but God, he himself commits the sin of seeking glory for himself only for which he condemns man. While many Muslims would say that Allah, the creator can be selfish if he wants, Bible believing Christians find the answer to this apparent contradiction in the Trinitarian nature of God. He shares his glory among himself.
Answer 6:
What are you talking about! You give a description to love from your own culture then apply it to Allah! This is not good. We are having a discussion on various issues, such as the fact that the Bible was corrupted. Yet, you bring a concept from the Bible to judge an Attribute of Allah found in the Quran? If you were fair, you would have looked for what love means in Islamic terminology when it pertains to Allah, and then offer your opinion, which will still be sufficiently refuted.
‘Selfish’, is not among the Names of Allah or among His Attributes; it is not a concept from the Quran; you came up with it by quoting some of the most unreligious men of all times. How can you use this sick logic to justify Trinity?
You claim you do not worship three, but one God. So, why describe Allah as being selfish, because, as a lone God, He demands that He alone is worshipped? You contradict the very essence of the OT. Moses said that God is one Lord, you know that. God is also described as being ‘jealous’, demanding that He Alone is worshipped, “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God” (Exodus 20:5). The people you quoted are directly describing the Lord of the OT. Meanwhile, you do not give the same description, selfish, to the Christian God, who is ONE God as you state? Unless of course you admit the truth, that you worship multiple gods, not one. Thus, using your logic, God is actually three selfish gods who also demand that no one worships anyone or anything except them, alone, all three of them. Allah is praised from such utter disbelief.
Allah is not selfish; selfishness is an attribute of creation. You invented a name for Allah, and then you judged Him by your invention. Where does Allah describe Himself as being selfish? Mankind is unjust. Allah, Alone, created them; Allah, Alone, sustains them; Allah, Alone, owns their life and death. Therefore, Allah, Alone, deserves to be worshipped. Other formulas are perfectly and utterly unjust. Why would mankind eat Allah’s food, breath His air, but thank someone else for these bounties? We are discussing the Quran, remember? Again, you bring people, and sometimes some ‘Muslims’, and make them equivalent to ‘Islam’. Do you want me to quote Christian sects and what they say about your own Book and your own faith? We agreed to discuss the resources not the people?
Your definition for love is not divine, nor does it apply to Islam or the Quran, because it is not contained in the Quran or the Sunnah. Judge Islam by what Islam says, not by your concepts and beliefs. Your creed claims that God loves creation so much, that he gave up His only son to die on the cross to atone for their sins. Did God develop this love for creation after He created creation, or did He have it from eternity when His claimed son was by His side? If He had love from eternity, then, according to your logic, this Attribute of His, LOVE FOR CREATION, was not fulfilled, until He created creation. In fact, using your logic, God’s Love was not fulfilled, until after God created creation and for thousands of years and thousands of generations after that, until Jesus came in the shape of a man to die for the sins of Christians, so we are told. Why did the Christian God wait all this time? Why did He hide His Love from earlier generations, waiting until Jesus was sent after countless generations who [rightfully that is] knew nothing about Trinity or the intended crucifixion of His only son? How is it that Abraham never described God as Christians do? He apparently did not know God as you know Him.
God’s Love did not seem to extend to those countless humans who lived and died unaware of Jesus’ sacrifice. They died without God saying a word to them of what Christians say is the true religion. If Abraham read what you wrote about God, he will reject it and would not agree with any part of it, because it is alien to all that the prophets stood for. Why did God wait all this time before letting mankind in on the secret? Why did He not extend His Love to those who came before Jesus, by letting Jesus die on the cross before Adam was created, or at least soon after he was created and during his lifetime? If God developed this love after He created creation, then, His Love is not eternal, as well as, making Him dependent on creation to fulfil His Love. And also, this means He changed. How little people think of Allah.
Allah’s Qualities are eternal. His Name was ‘al-Hadi,’ before there was creation to guide. This is how INDEPENDENT He is and Eternal. He did not need creation to fulfill His Attributes; He created creation to benefit from His Qualities and Attributes. This is the difference between your concept of God’s Attributes and Islam’s concept of Allah’s Attributes.
7) iii) 'Is Allah limited?' Of course that can not be, but he who thinks of God as an absolute unity where there is no room for multiplicity at all, is forced to believe in a god who does not know himself. Self-knowledge demands a distinction, a multiplicity, between knower and known. Self-consciousness, the recognition of a creature by itself as a 'self' can only exist in contrast with an 'other', a something which is not the self. Only a Trinitarian concept of God allows for such a vital distinction.
Answer 7:
You seem to continue the theme that God needs fulfilment of His Attributes; that He needs to be known by others, or by His multiple self, for Him to earn self-knowledge. According to your logic, and to solve this shortcoming in God it seems, the triune council shared knowledge about God between themselves, and thus, God(ness) was somehow fulfilled. Since you state that God is one, not three gods, then this logic of yours does not solve the shortcoming, because He is still a lone God in need of discovering Himself through multiplicity. I said you worship multiple Gods, didn’t I? You just said it. You cannot justify what you said, except by using the concept of multiplicity. You used it, thus, proving the fact that Christianity is polytheistic in essence.
Islam declares that Allah has many Names and Attributes, not only 99 as you keep repeating, and that these are eternal. Allah has always been aware of His own Names and Attributes. He needs NOT to prove them to anyone, especially to you.
a. Allah did not reveal all of His Names to mankind. He kept the KNOWLEFDGE of some of them with Him as an authentic Hadeeth states; (Al-Jawab al-Kafi (159), by Ibn al-Qayyim).
b. Allah said in the Quran that He revealed the Quran with HIS KNOWLEDGE, {166. But Allâh bears witness to that which He has sent down (the Qur’ân) unto you (O Muhammad صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وسَلَّمَ); He has sent it down with His Knowledge, and the angels bear witness. And Allâh is All-Sufficient as a Witness} (4:166). The Quran is full of Allah’s Names and Attributes. Therefore, Allah ‘knew’ that He is al-Hadi when He spoke with the Quran, before creation came, and when He revealed the Quran to Prophet Muhammad, after creation came.
c. The fact that Allah announced some of His Attributes to His creation in His Revelation is proof of what you call self-knowledge.
This is how Allah is described in our faith. How can we get from here to your allegation that Allah has been unaware of Him-Self or, using your words, does not know Himself? Allah did not discover He is al-Hadi after He created. Allah knew He is al-Hadi from eternity, because His Attribute al-Hadi is ETERNAL. You came up with a concept that Islam does not propagate and then claimed that this is what Islam propagates? What is wrong with this picture?
You claim that the triune council is eternal, which is part of your Trinitarian creed. It seems that even multiplicity did not cover the shortcoming with regards to creation, because the ability to create was not used or tested until creation was created. This means the triune did not really know they can create, until they created. What good is their shared knowledge that they can create, if this ability was not tested or fulfilled through creating from eternity, if we use your logic that is? Three or three hundred, if the attribute is not tested, then, according to your logic, the attribute is not fulfilled. The triune did not only NOT test their eternal ability to create until they created, but even after they created, they did not really know how being human is like, until they sent one of them to live like a human on earth. This is another mystery, isn’t it? We seek refuge with Allah from all this nonsense.
8) iv) ‘Are there two Eternal Ones in Islam?’ According to orthodox Islam the Quran is the uncreated, eternal word of God which has always existed in heaven, written in the form of tablets. The Mu’tazilites recognized that this would lead to the existence of two Eternal Ones and were therefore saying that the Quran was not everlasting. However, they are considered, Non Muslim heretics.
Answer 8:
There you go again! You use as proof for your arguments what Islamic sects say, while we agreed to debate the resources only. Do you want to change the discussion to also include what Christian sects say? Do you know that major cults in your own religion reject the integrity of the Catholic Bible? Shall we continue to discuss such issues?
However, I will still answer your question. First, where is your proof that the Mu`tazilah are considered non-Muslims? Second, Allah’s Kalam, i.e., Speech, is among His Attributes, Eternal, as He speaks with what He will whenever He will. His speech does not only include the Quran. But the original Torah, Zabur and Injil are also part of Allah’s speech. The result of His Eternal Attribute, the Kalam, is that He spoke with the Torah, the Injil and the Quran, all of which proceeded from Him, i.e., from His Quality of Kalam. Allah’s Attribute of Kalam is not created; the Quran is part of Allah’s Kalam, it proceeded from Him, all praise is due to Him.
The Mu’tazilah are not the Quran and, believe it or not, are also not the Sunnah. Their logic did not come from the Quran, but from philosophy. They did not look at the Quran as the literal word of Allah, but as a creation. They thought that if they agreed that Allah speaks, then, His Kalam becomes a separate eternal entity different than Him. Thus, they feared multiplicity, to use your own words. Thus, they denied Allah’s Attribute, the Kalam, and said that the Quran is created, to compensate for what Islam does not say to begin with. Simply put: even you would not say that your speech is a different entity than you are. Your speech proceeded from you; it is your speech. You are able to speak, and this is your attribute. Consequently, your speech is a result of your ability to speak, an attribute of yours. The Mu`tazilah failed, just like you failed, to understand what the topic here is about.
Catholics consider Protestants to be misguides, even fake Christians. Should I list what they say in this regard by quoting their popes and religious authorities? The Mu`tazilah cult is such a minor cult compared to the vast majority of Muslims who follow the way of Sunnah. Cut it out, we are discussing the resources, so stick to the topic please.
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